Narcissism Defined and Disclosed with Dr Dave Orrison

On this episode of Discovering Truth I sat down with Dr Dave Orrison, and I want to tell you upfront, this one is going to step on some toes. We are talking about narcissism, and a lot of you, after you hear this, are going to start putting words to things you have lived through for years without being able to name them.

Dr Orrison has pastored for over thirty years. He is the executive director of Grace for the Heart and the author of a book called Narcissism in the Church: A Heart of Stone in Christian Relationships. He has a PhD in theology and has counseled enough people in narcissistic systems to write the book most Christian counselors will not write. I wanted him on the program because in my own ministry I see narcissistic patterns constantly in the lives of survivors I work with, and the body of Christ is not equipped to handle it.

I asked Dr Orrison to give me a working definition. His answer was clean. Narcissism is the devotion to a superior image that uses the depersonalization of other people to support that image.

That definition unlocks a lot. Pay attention to the words. The narcissist is not devoted to the actual self. He is devoted to the image of himself. And he treats other people not as full human beings but as resources to keep that image propped up.

Dr Orrison pointed out something the culture misses entirely. Ask the average person on the street what narcissism is and they will say someone who loves himself. Not at all. The narcissist hates himself. He loves the image, and he expects you to love it too. The little kid hiding under the bed who was told he was not valuable as himself is still in there. The image is the only way he survives.

Dr Orrison walked me through the developmental piece, and this is where his teaching really opened my eyes. The narcissist develops very early in life. He is the child who learns that being himself does not get him love or acceptance.

He named two ends of that spectrum. The abandoned child, the kid whose parents are absent or addicted, learns "I am only valuable when I serve their purposes." The doted-on child, the kid who gets the nice clothes and the constant praise, learns the same lesson from the other direction. He cannot get up the hill on his own. He can only get up the hill performing for mom. Two sides of the same coin. Both produce the same fruit. I cannot be myself. I have to be somebody I am not.

I shared with Dr Orrison that in our ministry at Bride Movement we deal heavily with survivors of satanic ritual abuse and government-sponsored mind control. When a child is shattered through planned trauma and develops dissociative parts to survive, those parts learn the same lesson by force. Be someone else or die. It is a breeding ground for narcissistic patterns, which is why we see so many survivors carrying these characteristics not because they want to, but because they were trained.

Dr Orrison walked through several. I am pulling out the ones that hit hardest.

The first is no real empathy. By definition, narcissists do not connect with other people's emotions. They can mirror. They can study you and feed your emotions back to you so well that you feel loved. But there is nothing actually being given. Wives told him for years, "I see now there was never any love in the relationship." Just need for control. Just need for affirmation.

The second is the courtship-to-coldness switch. Dr Orrison described how narcissistic pastors and husbands are the nicest people you have ever met in the early stages. They listen. They remember everything. They make you feel seen. Then once you are inside the system, that disappears. The wife says, "I do not know if he even knows my name anymore."

The third is constant fear underneath. Narcissists are terrified. Of being found out. Of failure. Of the people propping them up letting them down. That fear drives the control, the micromanaging, the rage. The strongest narcissists, the politicians, the CEOs, the big-name pastors, are usually the most afraid. They cannot afford to look bad. So they have to control everyone.

The fourth is walking on eggshells. If you have spent years scanning a person's mood the moment they walk in the door, that is the system. Dr Orrison told me at least 75 percent of the people who come to him in narcissistic marriages describe this. The wife learns she is only acceptable as the performance, never as herself.

This is where I knew Dr Orrison's teaching was going to land different than secular content. He is not going to tell you everything is a diagnosis or that divorce solves it. He is also not going to tell you to stay and tolerate. He rejects both.

His counsel is practical. First, do not chase the diagnosis. Describe the behavior instead. Narcissism is a label that holds up better in popular conversation than in court. Describe what is happening and what it is costing you. Second, if you are being physically abused, leave the proximity. That is step one to getting healthy. Third, if you are committed to staying, build a life that includes people who value you. A walking partner. A book club. A friend who tells you that you do a good job when home tells you that you do nothing right. Fourth, have an escape ready. A small stash. A motel number. The peace of knowing you could leave even if you never do is substantial.

And for those who keep ending up in the same kind of relationship, Dr Orrison was honest. About ninety percent of the time, the vulnerability was built into the person in childhood. That is exactly what inner healing addresses, and it is exactly what our coaching team at Bride Movement walks people through.

Dr Orrison's book is on Amazon. His sites are graceformyheart.wordpress.com and gracefortheheart.org. I am bringing him back for round two because the church needs to keep having this conversation.